I was absolutely aware of the staff shortages and the lack of qualified staff on duty in some areas that had been reported to me. But I can honestly say that none of the staff were saying that the nursing care was not being given.You've already described how nurses would come and speak to you about concerns they had, and indeed you say in your statement that, at times, your members had burning issues that they wanted to discuss with you, but not about failings in nursing care.
They felt that they were trying to give the best care they could with the numbers that they had, but weren't able -- weren't able to deliver the care that they knew the patients wanted, needed and deserved. With the best will in the world, if there were three nurses on duty and five people buzz for a commode and each patient needs two nurses to get them out on to the commode, they can only help one patient at a time, and by the time they get to patient 5, that patient hasn't had the care that they need and may well have been incontinent
Robert Francis has clearly understood the crucial question of staffing levels and mix and asked good questions about who should be responsible for stipulating staff and staff mix levels. Peter Carter was very clear that this is something that it is completely inappropriate to leave to local discretion – it has to come from Government and it needs to be enforced by the Care Quality Commission. This is a message that needs to get through to this government as it directly contradicts the direction of the health bill proposals.
Well, first of all, Mr Francis, I actually think it should start at government level. I think it's wholly unacceptable that this is left to local employers. So, first of all, from the top there should be a compulsion on people to do impact assessments and to be clear about what their staffing is. But I would also put this into the remit of the Care Quality Commission. And I think that with their inspections and visits, they should have a real focus on staffing levels and they should be tasked to take employers to task on this.
When I go on visits I always obviously talk directly to nurses and other staff, but one of the things I always ask to do, and it's never denied to me, is I ask to speak to patients, and I think that's really important. And how I do this, I've got a kind of tried and tested way of doing it, is I put it to the -- the people that are escorting me around "Well, look, I want to ask patients at first-hand what they feel about their care, but it's going to be pretty intimidating if there's a small entourage with me". You know, you can hardly say to a patient "How do you feel about the nursing care?" if there are four or five nurses around. So what I do is I tend to go into, say, a four-bedded dormitory by myself and I simply say "Look, I'm Peter Carter from the Royal College of Nursing, I'm fishing here today, do you mind if I ask you about your care?" I do it in the a very low-level way. I've never been refused and people -- people talk.And at my visit to Mid Staffs, all of the people that I spoke with, could not have been more fulsome in their praise. I mean, look, I had -- I didn't know any of the people at Mid Staffs. There's no pre-existing allegiances. I mean, had people been saying to me "I'm glad someone's asking me, you know, I've got some real concerns about what's going on", I would have raised it with Helen Moss, I would have said -- but it was -- it was entirely the opposite. Really, really glowing tributes about what people were saying on the wards that I visited.
I'm astonished that -- I mean, I consider myself experienced. I'm astonished that you could go and visit a few wards and get such a really good feel-good factor, to then subsequently know that in part -- and we've -- we've got to be clear, it's parts of the hospital. The Healthcare Commission's inquiry was not into Mid Staffs per se. It was into the A&E, the medical wards and some other aspects of care. And it's not uncommon, and I've used it my statement, that hospitals are a series of microclimates. You can go to one ward with an excellent ward sister that's well managed and it's everything that you could wish. You can go to another ward and the care can be very poor. And that, I think, is what confuses people. All I'm saying is I called it straight and what I saw it felt really good.
When the Healthcare commission report and the press frenzy that accompanied it came out this came as a great shock to Mr Carter, as it did not accord with his experience, and he had certainly not had any indication of the level of problems raised by the report through the RCN channels.Look, we feel the whole hospital has been traduced here and yet many of us provide excellent nursing care". And in fact some of them were appreciative of my letters because they felt that reflected the truth.
But also the staff were also more open about the problems they were experiencing in other areas. I mentioned the open forum that I had, the word "Beirut"(which has become a part of the mythology of the Stafford hospital Story) in relation to EAU was mentioned then.
The inquiry explores this further – which is right – because if the indications are not coming from the nurses who are there giving the day to day care, then where are they going to come from.
Robert Francis askes about Whistle blowing. Does it work?
“ I think you're critical, I think, of Monitor and the PCT and other agencies for not spotting what was going on. But, of course, if your members aren't coming forward to you, if there's a general culture of people not being open about what's going on, it's very difficult for anybody to find out, isn't it?
I genuinely believe the vast majority of the nurses at Mid Staffs were nothing other than decent people, it is fair to say that, for a whole collection of reasons, which I'm happy to explore with you, people were not more open about the deficiencies in care. Now, I've already given one explanation is that people felt, well, if you're cutting 150 jobs, there was a heads down mentality, and there's also evidence that a lot of good nurses decided to leave
Yes, Mr Francis. Look, I think there's a huge problem with this. I mean, first of all, I'm sure you and your colleagues will be aware of this that sometimes ministers think that in Whitehall you have a piece of legislation and it solves the problem. And in my experience that's rarely the case.
Mr Carter was asked about some aspects of the HCC report.For the record, I think it's important to clarify, the RCN has 416,000 members, only 8,000 are healthcare assistants. So healthcare assistants are a tiny part of the membership. I just thought that was right for the record. The problem is the vast majority of healthcare assistants are not in any organisation at all. They'd be very welcome to join the RCN. In addition to that, the RCN is currently lobbying that we think healthcare assistants should be properly regulated and they should be trained. If I may go on just to add, you have -- have a phenomena at the moment -- and by the way, through -- across all sectors, both care homes, residential homes and hospitals, there are nearly half a million healthcare assistants. So it's a huge component of the workforce. And the problem at the moment is in the absence of any mandatory training, it's left to local employers. Now, there are some trusts that do it really well. They employ people, they induct them, they train them and teach them all of the skills that are needed. Sadly, at the at the other end of the spectrum, we've come across instances where people have no training at all. They're literally given a tunic, it looks like a nurse's uniform. They're put on wards and they pick it up as they go along. Now, we say that's wholly unacceptable.
He makes it clear that he has no knowledge of the mortality statistics which he sees as the responsibility of the trust, the PCT and the SHA.Perhaps because of this gap in his specific knowledge he accepts what he has heard about the HCC report without question.
But there are issues raised in the HCC report that did really upset him, as they did anyone who was concerned about the provision of good health care.
Receptionists were triaging patients in A&E, patients being left in excrement, nurses in the cardiac unit had not had the cardiac sciences training and so were turning off the cardiac monitors, intravenous infusions were not running properly.






